What is the connection between your brand and hiring?

Farra Trompeter: Welcome to the Smart Communications Podcast. This is Farra Trompeter, co-director and worker-owner at Big Duck. In today’s episode, we’re going to ask the question: What is the connection between your brand and hiring? And I am delighted to be joined by Olivia Freire. Olivia uses she/her pronouns and is Big Duck’s director of operations, where she guides financial stability, oversees human resources, and maintains legal compliance, all while fostering collaboration and efficiency. Olivia joined Big Duck in 2019 and previously worked in the financial sector, holding various roles in lending, client relationship management, compliance, and operations at banks in Oregon, where she spent her early years before making her way to Brooklyn. Olivia, welcome to the show.

Olivia Freire: Thanks for having me.

Farra Trompeter: Well, so about two years ago, Olivia wrote a blog that has since informed some exciting work we’ve been doing with organizations to explore how branding drives staff recruitment. If you haven’t read that blog yet or want to refresh on it, we’ll be sure to link to it in the transcript at bigduck.com/insights. But we’re going to touch on a bit of it today, give you a little bit of a flavor. So, Olivia, let’s just set some context here for our listeners. What led you to write this article?

Olivia Freire: Yeah, so this really came out of noticing a sort of disconnect in how organizations were presenting themselves externally to donors and to the general public, and how they were communicating with potential hires, job seekers, active job candidates, and sometimes a disconnect as well between the culture employees thought they were stepping into, and the external brand they had experienced before joining. And what I was seeing was that the strongest hires, and often the strongest cultures, came from organizations that really gave people a clear sense early on, sometimes even before that hiring process had happened, of what it was actually like to work there and what kind of people tend to thrive there–who is really successful in their culture. And when there was a mismatch between how an organization presented itself externally and how it actually felt to work there, how it communicated internally, I noted that people just didn’t really seem to stay. I saw issues with retention. So the article was really about connecting those dots, how your brand can sort of strengthen your internal communications, as well. And recruitment isn’t just about attracting people, but also setting those like clear, honest expectations about your organization, so that the right people join and actually want to stay there. And I think two years later that feels even more true. Candidates are more thoughtful and more passionate, and they’re really doing their research about organizations. And I think they’re really looking for that sort of values alignment upfront.

Farra Trompeter: Yeah, and I was excited when we were talking about this idea for the blog because I’ve had people say to me, “I didn’t apply for a job because I looked at the organization’s website. There was something about it. It clearly wasn’t updated. I didn’t get a sense of who they were.” So, I’ve certainly heard from job candidates that I chat with a bit, on my own, as a mentor to those in the nonprofit sector. And then we’ve also seen it where organizations are getting flooded with candidates these days, but often they’re not the right ones. So this is also really helpful in even filtering from an organization’s perspective, not even just from the candidate perspective.

Olivia Freire: Yes. I think it saves both parties a lot of time to set those expectations up front.

Farra Trompeter: So you can imagine, as a branding agency, it makes sense to ask our operations person to think about this. And I’ve personally had the pleasure of doing some processes with Olivia for some clients. But let’s talk a little more about it. How do you think, Olivia, you know, it can really help organizations to attract those qualified job seekers and candidates by having a strong brand?

Olivia Freire: Yeah, I think it can help in a few sort of key ways. I think first, it really helps to signal your values really clearly. Especially in the nonprofit space, I think people are looking for alignment with mission and values before they even apply, in a way that they might not be for a for-profit organization. And I think your brand really helps them quickly understand where you stand and whether that resonates, whether the work you’re doing will feel fulfilling for them. And I think second, it makes your culture a lot more visible and not in that performative way of like waving a flag of “This is our culture”, but in how you talk about your work, and how you describe your team, and what you as an organization emphasize to your job candidates. And I think candidates are really picking up on those cues and trying to imagine what it would actually feel like to work at the organization.

Olivia Freire: And then I think third, it just kind of helps you stand out. A lot of organizations are doing really important work, and they’re doing similar work, and from the outside, I think, you know, job seekers can look at three organizations and be like, “Well, you’re all servicing the same areas. What makes you different?” And I really think that’s where the brand comes into play, is differentiating you from your peers and giving people that reason to choose you over something else. And I sometimes like to say that, “Your brand is the first interview a candidate has with you,” and it’s really shaping their perception before you ever speak to them. And I think the other piece I’d add is that it’s not just about attracting people, but also retaining those people. And I think when your brand is really clear and honest, people come in with a much more accurate understanding of what to expect from you as an employer, ultimately. And that reduces those surprises and that misalignment, which are often those things that can sort of lead people to move on to other organizations.

Farra Trompeter: Very, very helpful. And I know sometimes in our work with organizations, when we’re talking about audiences, many naturally go to those more external audiences. They say donors, program participants, activists, the media, policymakers. They don’t always talk about their existing staff, let alone the potential staff. And so this is really encouraging people to think about that. And further, when we’re building brands for organizations, we often start by defining brand strategy, which includes positioning and personality. As we think about creating names, logos, taglines, messaging, and more to make sure it reinforces key elements like positioning, which is the big idea you want people to associate with you. One of the things I love about your article and the work that you’ve helped us think about here at Big Duck is really the idea of having an employee value proposition or an EVP, and I can’t help but see how the branding concept we use of positioning is tied to that idea of an EVP. And so, for those who might not be familiar with it, can you explain what an EVP, or again, an employee value proposition, is, and maybe share an example of one?

Olivia Freire: Yeah, I think that connection’s exactly right. The way I think about an EVP is that it’s essentially your internal version of positioning, and your external positioning can really inform your EVP. And if positioning is that big idea you want your external audiences, like you mentioned, to associate with you, your EVP becomes that big idea that you want current and future staff to associate with working at your organization, doing the work that your organization is trying to do. So I think about it as really answering the question, “Why would someone choose to work here over other organizations in our space, and what can they expect if they do?” And that usually includes a mixture of things, like the kind of impact they’ll have, the culture they’ll be a part of, how decisions get made in your organization, and then also what their day-to-day experience might look like.

Olivia Freire: And I know at Big Duck we often talk about positioning as that kind of north star internally, something that really helps guide decisions and keeps everyone aligned. And I think an EVP plays a really similar role for hiring and people management. It kind of helps you ensure that you’re consistently communicating what it actually means to be part of the organization. And it can be a decision-making tool, as well, like, “Is this the right fit for all parties involved in this?”

Olivia Freire: I think a simple example might be something like, “At this organization, you’ll have a high degree of ownership in your work. You’ll collaborate closely across teams, and you’ll be deeply connected to the impact of what you’re doing.” And the key is that it has to be really grounded in reality. It can be a little aspirational, but it needs to reflect the actual experience to be an effective tool. If I’m not actually collaborating closely across teams, maybe don’t include that; that’s not true for your organization, and that’s fine. You’re really looking toward the strengths and offerings that your organization has.

Farra Trompeter: Yeah, it is so similar, because we say the same thing with the brand positioning statement, right? It has to be authentically rooted in who you are. With a little nod toward aspiration. I always say like, “Who is your organization on its best day?” And it sounds like that same thing could be used here as we’re building an EVP. Well, so, recently Olivia and I got to do some work to help a nonprofit define its EVP, which again, like internal brand positioning statements, you know, has to really come from that place. And I’m wondering, Olivia, if you can talk about the process we did for an organization, or just generally the process of defining an EVP. What are the steps? Someone out there, maybe they’re listening to this, they’re getting excited, what can they do to determine their EVP?

Olivia Freire: Yeah, I think to your earlier point, an EVP definitely has to live in that space between what’s true about your organization today, and then also where it’s trying to go, because whoever you bring in is going to be a part of that journey. So, in the case of this client, the process really started with listening. We started by gathering input from staff across as many teams as we could, to understand their actual experience of working there, what they valued across the organization, what felt really distinctive about that organization as an employer, and then, also, where there may be some tension between that aspiration and reality. And from there, we were looking for patterns across those responses. So not just what sounded good, but what really consistently came up as part of that lived experience of the existing staff. And it’s things like how people collaborated, how decisions get made, even what kind of ownership staff have, and then what makes the organization feel different from other places someone could work. And that could be unique benefits that you offer. It could be a particular way that your organization makes decisions within teams.

Olivia Freire: And then we really worked to distill it into a few core themes that felt both true and meaningful to the group. And I think that’s an important step because a lot of organizations default to language that could apply almost anywhere, like “mission-driven” or “collaborative”. And those things may be true of your organization, but they’re usually not specific enough to really function as an EVP. It’s not telling job seekers, like, what’s unique about your organization. And there may be some crossover between organizations, but you’re seeking those little threads of uniqueness that you can draw to sort of build a story of what it’s like to be a member of the team.

Olivia Freire: And then the next step is really shaping those themes into something clear and usable. So, something that a hiring manager could speak to, or that show up in job ads, and on your careers page. And that give candidates that real sense of what they’re stepping into before they do it. And throughout the whole process, I think the biggest part was honesty and trust in your colleagues. And I think it’s okay for an EVP to be a little aspirational, like I said, but if it gets too far away from that real employee experience, I think that’s where the problems start of those mismatched expectations. And you may attract people, but they may not stay. And everyone’s invested all this time and this relationship, but ultimately, had you been clear in expectations from the beginning, things may have gone differently. So, I think the goal is really to create something that feels grounded and directional. So you’re attracting people who are aligned not just with the work that your organization’s doing, but with the actual experience of being there.

Farra Trompeter: Great. Very helpful. So let’s say somebody mirrors that process, defines their EVP, you actually briefly mentioned toward the end, the job ads and career pages, right? That’s often the first place an EVP is applied. It might even show up. So, how do organizations take an EVP and use that for hiring candidates with tools like their job ads and careers landing pages?

Olivia Freire: Yeah, I think that this is where it really like comes to life. It’s not meant to just sit in a document somewhere of “We did this work. Cool, great. We all have a shared understanding.” I think it needs to be kept alive and really show up in all of your hiring materials and be represented in that experience candidates have with you. I think in job descriptions, on top of just including that language, is also moving away from just leading with a list of the responsibilities and requirements. And instead, starting with more of the impact that the role has, the experience of being in that role. So really just helping someone understand why this role matters, and how it connects to your mission, and what it will actually feel like to do this work at your organization.

Olivia Freire: And that’s also where your tone and personality can come in as well. So, the way you write a job ad should really reflect how your organization communicates more broadly. So candidates are getting a real sense of your voice. And I think it feels more genuine across the organization. I think it makes your external communication stronger. It makes your internal communication stronger if there’s alignment in the sort of personality being used. And then on your careers page, I think it’s an opportunity to tell a fuller story. So not just, “These are the roles that we have open, please apply.” But also, an opportunity to sort of spell out a little bit, like, what is it like to work at your organization? And that might include, again, like how does your team collaborate? What unique benefits do you offer? What do you value as an organization? Even, how do people grow within your organization? Or, how do your organization or your teams, how do they approach challenges as well?

Olivia Freire: And I’d also say the hiring process itself is part of how you apply your EVP. So how you’re communicating with candidates, how transparent you are about the timelines and process, even how you structure interviews, all that sort of reinforces what you’re saying about your culture. And ultimately, it’s about what people experience more than just about what you’re saying. So, I think it helps again to have it be honest. So the people who are doing that work of recruiting believe what they’re saying, it feels true to them as well. Job seekers are going to pick up on that.

Farra Trompeter: Great. So right, the landing page, the job ads, that’s the things that job seekers might stumble upon and see. Some might go a little bit further, and look at organization’s websites more broadly, and their social media pages. So, let’s talk about social media for a bit. How can nonprofits use their social media accounts or even encourage their current team to use their own social accounts to help really explore how their brand can help attract new staff?

Olivia Freire: Yeah, I really think social media is one of the more underused tools when it comes to recruitment, especially with nonprofits. I think a lot of organizations are using their channels to talk about their programs, or campaigns, or fundraising, which makes total sense. And it means candidates aren’t really getting a sense of the people behind the work, most of the time. And I think one of the biggest opportunities I see is to use your socials to show more of your culture, in an organic way. And that could look like highlighting team members who are participating in events your organizations putting on, or have reached milestones, or sharing moments, even from day-to-day work that your organization is doing. I think also nice to celebrate wins. What successes has your organization experienced lately, and who was involved in that process? Or even just glimpses into how collaboration actually happens, celebrating the collaboration across teams in your org.

Olivia Freire: And I don’t think it needs to be like, overly polished, which may be why some nonprofits hesitate. I think it is a really human moment. I think the key here is that it should be encouraged, but not forced. So you don’t want it to feel performative, or scripted, or required for your staff. I think staff who feel really engaged and bought into the mission of their organization are going to want to celebrate successes in their own social media. And it can be as easy as just sharing their post, if they’re comfortable with it. So, I think it’s really about using social media as another way to make your culture more visible and help people self-select into whether it’s the right fit for them.

Farra Trompeter: That’s helpful. So you’re laying out how an organization can bring their culture to life a bit on their social channels, and maybe they just decide to do that on Instagram. Maybe it’s not on every, or, you know, they celebrate certain work-iversaries on LinkedIn, right? Connecting to that channel, and also potentially encouraging their staff to periodically share content, as well. Well, if you’re out there and you’d like to learn more about this topic, be sure to watch the recording of a webinar Olivia and I did about the connection between branding and recruitment and retention. And that’s on our website. You can find it through search or we will link to it again on the transcript at bigduck.com/insights. You can also always reach out to [email protected] if you’d like to set up a call to discuss how we can help your HR and people team understand and leverage your brand. Finally, feel free to connect with Olivia on LinkedIn. She’s building her own network out there. Well, so Olivia, before we sign off, are there any other tips or advice you’d like to share with our listeners?

Olivia Freire: Yeah, I really think the biggest thing I’d leave people with is that recruitment is really about alignment, not volume. I think it can feel really tempting to try and attract as many candidates as possible, but what actually leads to stronger teams is that clarity–being clear about who you are, how you work, and what someone can expect from being a part of the team. And I think when people have an accurate picture going in, they can make that more informed decision about whether it’s the right fit, which leads to better hiring and better retention. And I’d really encourage organizations to think about their brand, not just as something external, but something that shapes the experience people have once they’re inside.

Farra Trompeter: Yeah, and I know you’ve said from other conversations, right, all of this is not necessarily about culture fit; it’s about culture add. And this work will help us further that. So, Olivia, thank you so much for being here today. Everyone, go out there, think about your brand and its connection to HR. Have a great day.