How can you plan an inclusive and welcoming project?

Farra Trompeter:Welcome to the Smart Communications podcast. This is Farra Trompeter, co-director and worker-owner at Big Duck. Today we’re gonna ask the question, how can you plan an inclusive and welcoming project? I am delighted to be joined by Brenda and Josh, two of our account managers at Big Duck. This is their first time on our podcast, hopefully not the last. Let me tell you a little bit about Brenda and Josh. Josh Kelley, they/them, has previously managed strategic communications programs for both electoral and advocacy campaigns across the country. Most of their work has been focused on queer liberation and abortion access, but they have experienced working thoughtfully, intentionally, and intersectionally in a variety of issue area contexts. Josh holds a BA in theater from Pace University in New York, and they’ve also done postgraduate research in critical gender studies at Central European University in Vienna, Austria. Josh, welcome to the show.

Josh Kelley: Thank you so much. So excited to be here.

Farra Trompeter: And Brenda Perez, she/her/ella, brings experience in logistics, planning, and community organizing to the team. Before joining Big Duck, Brenda led organizations advancing immigrant rights, labor organizing, and civic participation. She organized actions, trainings, and conferences with workers, faith leaders, students, and political leaders. Brenda has a master’s in Divinity from Vanderbilt University where she wrote her thesis on Joyful Resistance. Brenda is also a worker-owner and the secretary of Big Duck’s Board of Directors. Brenda, welcome to the show.

Brenda Perez: Excited to be here.

Farra Trompeter: So you both have very interesting and eclectic backgrounds. You bring experience as both activists and organizers to your role as account managers. And I wanna just start there. Can you share a bit about how your experiences shape your approach to setting goals, creating experiences for our clients, and working closely with our team on branding and communications projects? How do these amazing backgrounds in organizing and engagement really inform your approach to project and account management? Josh, wanna start us off?

Josh Kelley: Absolutely. I love this question. The first thing that immediately came to my mind is I’m very outcome-oriented. I think that’s sort of the hallmark of advocacy and electoral work in general, right, is that we have a goal. And the whole process is structured in order to meet that goal. And it’s often a very time-sensitive and inflexible deadline. And so, I think, this sort of outcome-oriented approach is something that I like to bring to my projects here at Big Duck. As well as focusing on what does authentic, thoughtful, and effective engagement look like? When you’re talking to voters or supporters in an organizing context, they know if you’re being truthful, they know if you’re just talking to them because you don’t care about them, you just want them to do something for you, versus, like, actually building meaningful relationships with people. And I think that approach is also something I really like to bring to the work at Big Duck as well.

Farra Trompeter: How about you Brenda?

Brenda Perez: Yeah, I also love this question. For me, there’s a few things. One, we have really fantastic clients so it’s easy to work with clients who are doing really great work. And I always try to focus on the mission and the vision and the people on the ground. Who is ultimately going to be most impacted by us doing really great work? And how do we make sure that we put egos aside, we get all of our tasks done, take advantage of all the resources, of all of the opportunities to make that work as successful as possible? I think those are the kinds of things that really influence me and how I approach my role in account management and project management. And it’s also just really great to connect with people who are doing good work in all parts of our country. So that’s also just kind of a little bonus. It fulfills the people side of me of just connecting with people who are doing that work on the ground.

Farra Trompeter: Love it. Now, earlier this year I had the pleasure of learning from Brenda and Josh on this very topic we’re gonna talk about on today’s podcast. That conversation was at NTEN’s Nonprofit Technology Conference. And before we get into some of the great ideas and topics and insights that Brenda and Josh shared in that, I’m wondering if one or both of you could talk about what led you to develop content around planning inclusive and welcoming projects. Why do nonprofits need to think about this and really what spurred the whole idea in the first place? Brenda, wanna start us off?

Brenda Perez: Yeah, well this was a fun project to work on, to be transparent, and it was one of the first projects that Josh and I got to work on together. And honestly, what spurred this for me is that both Josh and I share an organizing background in different types of spaces. And there are a lot of practices in community organizing that seem a bit standard, but when you take ’em out of those places are are a little bit new or, or push people into vulnerability and to growing vulnerability. So, for me, it was kind of important to like, okay, let’s actually bring these tools that have been shared with us and how do we share them with other parts of our communities that are trying to do good work. So we just kind of got together and wrote them out and shared them out the best ways that we could.

Brenda Perez: And there’s a really important part for me that kind of guides a lot of my work in community organizing projects that I’ve been a part of and here at Big Duck as well, that it’s not just about what we do, but it’s also about how we do it. So it’s like, how are we bringing people along in this project? How are we making space? How are we inviting people to participate so it’s not just getting this thing done so we can move on or, or say, “We did it”, but it’s also engaging people throughout it?

Josh Kelley: I’d also add, for me personally, I always like to say that DEI is a verb, not a noun. And sort of playing with this theme that Brenda brought up of like doing, you know, so many people sit here and think, “I wanna be inclusive, but I don’t know how, what do I do?” And we talk about it and we talk about it and we talk about it. I really wanted to create a space where we could share tips and tools, things that people can take and easily start implementing right now, right? I think sometimes DEI feels like this thing we put in the future of like, “One day we’ll be great!” But there are things that you can start doing right now that can advance these goals. And so sort of shifting out of a noun and into verb territory and sort of focusing more on action and less on talk, right? Because sometimes action is the hardest part, but the best way to get started is to just get started. So hopefully some of these tips that we’ll be sharing today will inspire all of you listening to go out and really start putting things into action right now.

Farra Trompeter: Well, let’s get into it. So in the workshop, you started the whole session by asking participants to reflect and share, what makes them feel welcomed. And you did that with an adorable gif. I prefer gif, not gif. We can debate that later. Now I love how that set the stage and so I can’t help but wonder what makes you feel welcomed. So whichever one of you would like to start, I’d love to know what makes you feel welcomed.

Brenda Perez: Yes. I just wanna start by talking about the technical aspect of the gif. I say gif. But we wanted to start this session asking people a question. Our session was only 30 minutes long and we were going to ask some kind of like vulnerable questions and push people into considering some practices. And by starting with a question, we were opening it up and setting the stage that this is going to be a conversation. So we didn’t wanna have a presentation where it’s, like, 25 minutes in and then it’s like, “Okay, now give us some questions and let us hear from you about what are some of the big things you’re struggling with.” We really wanted to start with, “Hey, let’s hear from you about what actually works for you.” And we got some great responses and it set the tone. I definitely encourage facilitators when you’re working with groups of people and you wanna get into a heavy topic, to start with a small question at the beginning that everybody can answer, so that everybody has a moment to practice using their voice. And for this particular instance, we used a tool called Slido. So people kind of chatted it in, nobody raised their hand, nobody had to speak in front of a new audience. So, also think about the scale of participation and how do you work people through that journey. So for me personally, what makes me feel welcomed or when I’m stepping into a new space is, I like to think of what’s happening around me. Is there music in the background? Is it music that I know? Is it music from my culture? Is it diverse music or is there food there? What kind of food is it? One type of dominant culture food or is it, like, a diversity of snacks? And then, of course, I look for things like is there an agenda that is transparent and posted on the wall of what are we hoping to do and who the people are that are gathering? I constantly walk into new spaces. Those are the kinds of cues or clues that I look out for that would make me feel like, “Okay, this is a safer space for somebody who is brand new.” Like I know what’s gonna happen, I’m not gonna be surprised. And somebody put a really a lot of thought and intention behind setting up the space.

Farra Trompeter: Yeah. I’m curious, Josh, for you, whether it’s an in-person space or a virtual space, what makes you feel most welcome?

Josh Kelley: I would say it’s a couple of things. I know I’m always looking for laughter and a sense of humor. I think that pairs really nicely with what Brenda was saying about music. But often our work can be very serious. Our world is very serious. And when I’m with a new group of people, what puts me at ease is knowing that we’re human, right? We can come together, we can still laugh, be joyful, and it’s sort of Brenda’s thesis topic, joyful resistance, is there joy in the room? And then I would also say some maybe more practical things. As often one of the only trans-non-binary people in any given room, are we talking about pronouns? Are people offering their pronouns, before I even have to ask? I’m looking for things like land acknowledgments. Less so maybe in the virtual space, but at any time we’re meeting, whether it’s in person or virtual, we are on land, right? And I think making those acknowledgments help ground us in sort of where we are in time and place and make me feel like, “Okay, my comrades are in the room, we’re all on the same page here.”

Josh Kelley: And then also, this one I think depends on the person. I really appreciate when folks sort of name relevant current events, right? We are all a group of people who are all probably doom-scrolling before the meeting starts. We’re hopefully taking a five-minute break before the meeting starts, but you know, it is what it is. And I think too, like just bringing that humanity. For me it’s about, you know, performativity versus realness, right? Is this a room that feels like I’m just gonna have to be like this on robot focused only on work, right? I’m not a full human. Or is this a room where I can just be myself and be real and be present with like what is? And I think you know, acknowledging what’s going on outside of the room, both historically in the context of a land acknowledgment but also present current events for me always puts me at ease and makes me feel ready to sort of step up and engage and be vulnerable.

Farra Trompeter: Well thank you both for that. I’m gonna have to think about how this translates to a podcast environment, but that will be my homework for a later day. Now, in the content itself, you both put together 10 practices people can follow to manage projects with inclusivity in mind. And we don’t have time today to get into all 10 of those, but I’m wondering if you could both share one or two of those practices and how following that shapes the experience staff, board, community members, and others have on a project. Josh, you wanna lead us off this time?

Josh Kelley: Absolutely. So the first one I wanna talk about is that virtual accessibility is the new normal. Some of us here at Big Duck, we are an entirely remote team, but some folks that we work with do have an office. And whether it’s a hybrid work environment or a fully in-person environment, we’re all on a different reality there. But I think the more that you can create hybrid environments as the new normal, the better. And that’s for a couple of reasons. Some folks might feel safe and comfortable meeting in person. For folks that you work with who may be disabled or immunocompromised, that is probably not the case. Particularly if you wanna make sure you are including diverse voices, particularly voices that historically are often left out of the conversation. Virtual accessibility sort of has to be your new normal.

Josh Kelley: And it’s also, virtual accessibility benefits everyone. A lot of my colleagues here at Big Duck have kids and you know what? I don’t have kids, but I do know, I used to be a babysitter, things happen and you think you’re gonna be at that in-person meeting, but then you know you’re getting that call from the school nurse and you are no longer coming to that in-person meeting. So virtual accessibility ultimately benefits everyone. Folks that might be feeling a little bit sick but don’t wanna necessarily take a sick day, but they’re just not feeling good enough to be physically present but they can still pop on the computer, no problem. So, creating an environment where no matter who needs it, it’s always there and even if nobody needs it, you never know when someone will. So always being set up for virtual accessibility is such a great best practice.

Josh Kelley: And then there’s a couple of other things to consider too, like do you have access to an ASL interpreter? I think a lot of people are moving into a space where they’re really good about creating opportunities for folks to request accommodations. But I think the more that you can just be set up to just always having those accommodations available, the better, right? It’s this concept of: This is made for you. You are not an exception. You don’t have to go through the emotional exhaustion of perpetual self-advocacy. We’ve already made this for you. We already have an ASL interpreter on tap. That’s something I see a lot in Portland, Oregon where I live. Showing up to events, theater events, comedy shows, and there’s just an ASL interpreter there. Nobody had to ask for it. Even exploring things like masks in-person, is that a protocol that you wanna set? Pronoun name tags: that’s something you start to see more and more of. So the more that you’re able to create environments, even with translators, if you’re engaging with folks who maybe their first language isn’t English, do you have access to translators as needed? And so those are things that you wanna make sure that yes you can offer them if people ask, but even better like 2.0 is having those things already present and available for whoever might need them without having to ask for it. And so I think, for me, those are some of the big takeaways I’d love to share with folks.

Farra Trompeter: Thank you. How about you Brenda?

Brenda Perez: Yes. So there’s three that I really kind of wanna talk about in our short time together. And one is really think about metrics. And I know that sometimes DEI and measuring or like having metrics seem to kind of contradict each other and there are some things that you cannot measure absolutely, but start with what you can. There’s a few places that you can look for that you really wanna bring some numbers into it. Sometimes if you don’t have a DEI plan or a very specific statement around inclusivity or these types of practices in your organization or business, think about some strategic plans. Think about your values. If you do have a DEI commitment pull from there. What kind of commitments, if you’re working on a project, can you make to demographics? Can you identify the dominant voice in your organization? What does that look like?

And how are we gonna try to mitigate that dominant voice from taking up the full space? So as you review these things, it’s important to just like set some metrics from the start and it’s a tough challenge. And it could be metrics that maybe you don’t share with the project team, maybe your organization isn’t ready for that. Or maybe it is, you can function here as an individual or as a big project manager. But kind of think about how you want to have these metrics for success, for inclusivity, and welcoming practices into your projects.

Brenda Perez: So the other one I wanna talk about is access. At Big Duck, we work on some big-scale projects like branding or renaming organizations. And some of these are really important and feel really, like, emotional. We wanna hold these really tight to our chest. And there are some projects I absolutely should hold close. But as you advance your project and as you are, like, working with your teams and departments and other stakeholders, are there ways that you can open up access? Is there something that you can set up that could decentralize data a little bit? Or even just share updates of how your project is progressing. If you’re going through a renaming, can you share the main milestones of when your project is gonna launch, to when we’re gonna start considering names, or when this survey or input moment is going to happen? Are there ways that you can figure out how to decentralize data so people can just look at something or find an update without having to ask a specific person? Because we’re not trying to give people more work. There’s plenty of work in the world for everybody, right? So really think about: how do you decentralize that data? How do you open up access?

Brenda Perez: And another thing is to continuously make the invitation. When we’re inviting people, we’re creating welcoming and inclusive practices. We’re basically recruiting people, right? And we’re recruiting people that we typically haven’t worked with or our organization hasn’t worked with that doesn’t have a good history or, or whatever, all the reasons that exist in the world. So you have to make the invitation multiple times. You cannot give up at that first time and be like, well, we sent them two invites; an email, and something in the mail, and they didn’t come. You know, it’s like, well that’s not really gonna work. If you’re building relationships and wanting to make people feel welcome and inclusive, you have to think about: what are the ways that you can continue to make that invite a part of your system, part of, like, your outreach system or your growth system? But think about it as a system and not just like a one-time thing.

Brenda Perez: Okay, and the last thing I wanna talk about is: build flexibility, which is a really hard one, right? When we work on projects, we have timelines, we have budgets, we have outcomes, and we wanna get there and we wanna be respectful of all the resources that we have on hand. But if there’s a possibility, try to build a little bit of a reserve budget. What if something comes up? What if a new opportunity happens? If you’re doing research on a project, what if there’s a new focus group that is uncovered through part of the process that you wanna invite in and you’re like, “Well here’s why I reserved this little pocket of money so that we can invest at this moment.” Can you build a little bit of space in the timeline? I know we all want our projects to be done yesterday, but is there a little bit of wiggle room or you know, just, it could be a couple of days, it could be a couple of weeks of what you can add in there just to make space for opportunities. Because as we’re creating welcoming and inclusive spaces, we’re bringing more people and more voices into the room. And so we don’t want to just have new people come in and be like, “Well here’s the roadmap, and on your go, you’re either onboard or you’re not.” We’re bringing them in to be part of it, to co-create, you know, to be part of the leadership as well. So yeah, so build flexibility when you can.

Josh Kelley: I just wanted to jump in there too, ’cause Brenda, I really like what you’re saying about flexibility and that, and that reminds me of the importance of planning for multiple ways for people to process and participate. You want the process to be flexible, but you also want the ways that people can engage to be flexible. And just to put a finer point on Slido, you know, this is not a sponsor post from Slido, but we do love the tool. Slido allows people to submit questions anonymously. So for our Q and A in the session for example, there were some people who were comfortable raising their hands and speaking out loud publicly, but that’s not how everybody likes to participate, right? So folks were able to submit anonymous questions on their phone that we could bring into the space. So finding multiple ways to participate. If people are on Zoom, you know, maybe camera’s on, camera’s off, right? People have different preferences there. So creating that flexibility in those contexts as well so that you can ensure people are able to be as honest and authentic as they can. If you are having a meeting and someone’s boss is in the room, it might be a little bit more challenging for them to be as honest as they might wanna be. But if you have that anonymous Slido, they will probably feel a little bit more brave. So I just wanted to put a finer point on that flexibility, because I think that principle really extends to so much of what inclusivity work can look like.

Farra Trompeter: Yeah, thank you both and I wanted to just acknowledge that you both have also contributed some great content to our blog. And if folks are trying to dig into some of these topics, Josh wrote a great piece in 2023 called Want to be accessible? Don’t leave virtual meetings behind. We will link to that at bigduck.com/insights. And Brenda’s written several pieces including Let abundance and DEI guide your brand and communications. So be sure to check those out as you wanna get into these topics. But let’s get back to our pre-scheduled conversation over here. Now, as we were preparing for today’s conversation, we discussed some of the questions and comments you received when you presented this content, both in person at the NTEN Nonprofit Technology Conference, and then later as a webinar through Big Duck. And several people confidentially shared challenges to following these ideas in their organization. Some of which you just touched on, Josh. They may have some resistance or a concern about pushback from leadership. And if there are folks out there listening who may not have positional power or are facing roadblocks to implementing some of these ideas, what advice do you have for them?

Brenda Perez: Yeah, first off, I want to acknowledge that it’s a very challenging situation to be in. And we know that the nonprofit industry has all sorts of issues and challenges with workers and really valuable missions and visions and reasons why they exist, right? So when appreciations for all those people who brought up those kinds of dynamics that they’re working through. Second, there’s a phrase that comes to mind that I learned when I was working with the Coalition of Immokalee Workers in Florida. They say “We are organizing a river.” And so for these farm workers who are working to improve labor rights in the field, the actual farm workers change from year to year. It’s a migration-based system. So the people who are working next to you might not be the same people who are working next to you next week, and you might be in a different state or whatever. So it’s really easy to fall into like a hopelessness or why should I even try like this is a very challenging situation. But what this phrase does for me is reminds me that my actions or your actions and your intention have impact. And it might not be immediately seen, it might not even be seen by you, but it does have impact and it matters. And people will remember new actions and new approaches.

Brenda Perez: So I encourage anyone who might be in those tough situations to find ways to practice these on a scale that you can’t do without any major roadblocks. Is there something that you can try either in, like, your department meeting or in a team meeting and then build up to your board meeting or a big retreat? And these could be very small to, like, I’m gonna introduce myself in this way, or I am going to share an agenda on the wall. Because, well, some organizations will still need a little bit of support with those kinds of things, you know. But find ways to practice them. And remember that you might not see the impact at this organization, but you don’t know who you’re working next to and you don’t know where they’re gonna be years from now. And they’re gonna remember your approaches, your intentions, and be able to implement them or make a new path forward.

Josh Kelley: I’d also add something I always like to say is, Well, if it were easy, it would already be done, right? That’s sort of the point. If it was done, that means it was easy, right? And because it’s not, therefore we still have more work to do. And so I think persistence is key in these sort of situations. But also remembering that no matter what your power positionality is, you can still model best practices by example, right? There’s so much that you can focus on doing that, you know, maybe you can’t get everyone to share their pronouns in a meeting, but you can share them. Maybe you can’t get everyone to do a land acknowledgment in a meeting, but you can do a land acknowledgement. I know whenever I start to feel like, “Wow, I am just Sisyphus like pushing that giant rock up the mountain’, I try to focus in and be like, well, what can I do, right? How can I model this for other people? Because then that gets people excited about it. People notice that.

Josh Kelley: And I know, I mean, even in our context, Brenda and I are, of course, bringing our own experiences in presenting that here in this context. But I learn from Brenda every day through what Brenda’s modeling, right? My own approaches to this stuff doesn’t exist in a vacuum, right? I look at my colleagues who model these practices and I adapt them myself, right? And so it becomes a very social environment as well. And I am a white person. And the thing I try to tell other white people is like, we have power and privilege. We can say and do things that other people just can’t get away with. And don’t be afraid to use what you have. I always try to remind myself my whiteness is a shield at times, right? I can get away with saying that big scary thing to that maybe big, scary person, right? And so use that. Use what you have to build the world that you wanna live in.

Farra Trompeter: Well, I learn from both of you every day as I have on this conversation. And while we need to wrap things up, I wanna just offer one more opportunity for folks out there to learn from you too. Is there anything else you’d like to offer? Tips, recommendations, favorite ways of saying GIF or gif, whatever it may be, as we wrap things up. Josh, anything you wanna share?

Josh Kelley: I’m coming in hard with gif, but in all seriousness, I just encourage folks to be a lifelong learner. When we talk about inclusivity and DEI, we really try to position those things as, “Oh, this is just something we do in the workplace” and that’s actually not true, right? This is a way to move through the world whether you’re at work or not. And so the more that you allow yourself to be a lifelong learner and not just like check these boxes and call it a day, the better. Because you know, things are always changing. Maybe a year from now we’ll have to rerecord this podcast ’cause there will be new best practices that we didn’t even consider at this time, right? This is a sort of never-ending dialectic. And the more that you can be an engaged citizen and student of the communities that you live and work with, the better. What voices do you have on your social media? Whose books are you reading? Whose stories are you watching on TV or watching in movies? What folks do you actually build authentic relationships with? So the more that you really bring this approach to your life, the better.

Brenda Perez: I think for me when you’re creating a welcoming culture, ’cause this is about culture change, it means you’re constantly kind of restarting and resetting as people join. So just plan for that. People are coming in. If you’re succeeding, it’s becoming more welcoming and more inclusive. So you are going to work with new kinds of people. So just stay agile and opening to new practices as they come and open to new ideas. Also, prepare yourself: you’re gonna be wrong one day. Prepare yourself as to how you’re gonna respond when somebody uses their time and effort to call you in, because we’re all human. So yeah, stay agile, open to welcoming and inclusive practices as they will change throughout the times.

Farra Trompeter: Well, thank you both. You know, at Big Duck we think and talk and write, not just about creating amazing brands and campaigns and identities, but also the process of doing it, making it inclusive, and making it engaging. And Brenda and Josh, I want to thank you again for joining us today. If you’d like to get more blogs and podcasts on these topics, please be sure to check out bigduck.com/insights. And also you can connect with Brenda Perez on LinkedIn. We will link to Brenda’s profile as well. And again, Brenda and Josh, thanks for being with us today.

Brenda Perez: Thank you for having us. Excited to be here.

Josh Kelley: Oh, such a pleasure. Always down. We’ll do it again next year,

Farra Trompeter: There you go. Save the date. We’ll see you again next year. All right, everyone, have a great day out there.